Solar Pannels vs. HOA regulations
Question:
So far everyone on Google groups has given me fantastic advices (well… mostly), so I decided to try my luck with this dilemma. I have measured my house roof, and found a perfect spot to install 8 solar panels to heat the pool. The bummer is that the south part of the roof is facing the street, and will be quite visible to everyone. Now I have to come up with a good argument for our HOA architecture comity to approve my plan, as it directly conflicts with their "unsightly articles" rule (hey, they look beautiful to me). I’ve heard that some states have laws regarding renewable energy that override any HOA’s, and there are some federal "Solar Access" laws, but I don’t know if they apply in Texas. I would hate to endup in a legal fight, and don’t want to spend $300 per month operating heat pump. If anyone has some experience with their pain-in-the-behind HOA members and solar panels, please let me know! Sincerely, Denis
Response:
Dennis, What is your community, county, township etc. These are local area specific so more info is needed for anyone to assist you in your immediate area. John
: So far everyone on Google groups has given me fantastic advices : (well… mostly), so I decided to try my luck with this dilemma. : : I have measured my house roof, and found a perfect spot to install 8 : solar panels to heat the pool. The bummer is that the south part of the : roof is facing the street, and will be quite visible to everyone. Now I : have to come up with a good argument for our HOA architecture comity to : approve my plan, as it directly conflicts with their "unsightly : articles" rule (hey, they look beautiful to me). : : I’ve heard that some states have laws regarding renewable energy that : override any HOA’s, and there are some federal "Solar Access" : laws, but I don’t know if they apply in Texas. : : I would hate to endup in a legal fight, and don’t want to spend $300 : per month operating heat pump. : : If anyone has some experience with their pain-in-the-behind HOA members : and solar panels, please let me know! : : Sincerely, : Denis :
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Ok, more specifically, this is in Austin TX, and the community is Steiner Ranch.
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Ok, this is in Austin TX, and the community is Steiner Ranch.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So far everyone on Google groups has given me fantastic advices > (well… mostly), so I decided to try my luck with this dilemma. > I have measured my house roof, and found a perfect spot to install 8 > solar panels to heat the pool. The bummer is that the south part of the > roof is facing the street, and will be quite visible to everyone. Now I > have to come up with a good argument for our HOA architecture comity to > approve my plan, as it directly conflicts with their "unsightly > articles" rule (hey, they look beautiful to me). > I’ve heard that some states have laws regarding renewable energy that > override any HOA’s, and there are some federal "Solar Access" > laws, but I don’t know if they apply in Texas. > I would hate to endup in a legal fight, and don’t want to spend $300 > per month operating heat pump. > If anyone has some experience with their pain-in-the-behind HOA members > and solar panels, please let me know! > Sincerely, > Denis
My experience is in AZ. Almost all of the HOA’s here use the same verbiage. No solar panels facing the street. Hell they even have regs to stop people from flying the American Flag. Since AZ as a bit of solar economy the state passed a law that prohibits HOA or neighbors from interfering with your solar collection. The HOA’s which are funded by unknowing folks. ( I sat on a HOA board for a year) Hired attorneys and modified the verbiage to say basically "so you can not see if from the street/front of the property" a kin to "unsightly" My stint on the board convinced me that I will never live with an association again. Your in for a uphill battle if they are invoking the unsightly regs. Do you know an attorney that likes to litigate for little or no fee? It is time to contact the local folks for specifics. Good luck cause your going to need it.
Response:
> My experience is in AZ. Almost all of the HOA’s here use the same verbiage. > No solar panels facing the street. Hell they even have regs to stop people > from flying the American Flag. > Since AZ as a bit of solar economy the state passed a law that prohibits HOA > or neighbors from interfering with your solar collection. The HOA’s which > are funded by unknowing folks. ( I sat on a HOA board for a year) Hired > attorneys and modified the verbiage to say basically "so you can not see if > from the street/front of the property" a kin to "unsightly"
The Arizona statute is: http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/33/00439.h… A. Any covenant, restriction or condition contained in any deed, contract, security agreement or other instrument affecting the transfer or sale of, or any interest in, real property which effectively prohibits the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined in section 44-1761 is void and unenforceable. B. A deed, contract, security agreement or other instrument affecting the transfer or sale of, or any interest in, real property entered into before April 17, 1980 shall not be subject to the provisions of this section. Forcing you to put it in the shade probably would "effectively prohibit" the installation. My HOA will require me to apply, but I don’t see that they could say no to a reasonable installation. In my case it will be in the back and that’s why I chose this lot. We’ll see, once I get to afford the PV panels.
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Is the roof considered "facing the street"? Put them up nicely with some curtains around them and tell them they are skylight windows.
Ok, this is in Austin TX, and the community is Steiner Ranch.
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Curtains??? Are you serious? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Is the roof considered "facing the street"? > Put them up nicely with some curtains around them and tell them they are > skylight windows. > Ok, this is in Austin TX, and the community is Steiner Ranch.
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SQLit> Your in for a uphill battle if they are invoking the SQLit> unsightly regs. Why is that? If the law specifically says that aesthetic issues regarding solar panels are unenforcable, just go ahead and install the panels, and if they threaten to sue, send them a copy of the law. If they sue, point out the statute to the judge. But they won’t sue, because they know they’ll lose and they don’t want to establish precedent. (Note: I am *so* not a lawyer. Note2: my HOA expressed displeasure at my initial solar design, and I redesigned it rather than piss anyone off. I chose that route because it was possible and I always like to be friendly. Plus, other people’s ideas of what looks bad are often well worth considering.) If they are barred from aesthetic issues, what exactly *does* an HOA have authority over? Health and safety issues go to the town/city/county, whichever is controlling. Does your HOA own your utility connections, or anything else your panels have to connect to?
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Well I was being facetious but there has to be a way to make them look nice. Aren’t skylights allowed? How about electonic syklights that gather sunlight, convert them to electrical energy and then direct them to a flourescent light converter again?
Curtains??? Are you serious? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Is the roof considered "facing the street"? > Put them up nicely with some curtains around them and tell them they are > skylight windows. > Ok, this is in Austin TX, and the community is Steiner Ranch.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > So far everyone on Google groups has given me fantastic advices > (well… mostly), so I decided to try my luck with this dilemma. > I have measured my house roof, and found a perfect spot to install 8 > solar panels to heat the pool. The bummer is that the south part of the > roof is facing the street, and will be quite visible to everyone. Now I > have to come up with a good argument for our HOA architecture comity to > approve my plan, as it directly conflicts with their "unsightly > articles" rule (hey, they look beautiful to me). > I’ve heard that some states have laws regarding renewable energy that > override any HOA’s, and there are some federal "Solar Access" > laws, but I don’t know if they apply in Texas. > I would hate to endup in a legal fight, and don’t want to spend $300 > per month operating heat pump. > If anyone has some experience with their pain-in-the-behind HOA members > and solar panels, please let me know! > Sincerely, > Denis
Hi, Is there any possibility of putting them on the ground on the south side of the house with landscaping or visual shielding of some type? Maybe fairly flat with a nice white (reflector) wall behind them? In Texas, even a horizontal panel captures a lot of sun. At 32 deg lat (Dallas), Horz 32 deg tilt July 2630 BTU/day-sqft 2230 BTU/day-sqft Jan 1140 1890 Or, is there a space in the backyard that is not shaded by the house? Or, as suggested above, if they were glazed panels, they could be mounted on the roof, and made to look a lot like skylights? With fuel approaching $3 per gallon, you might find the HOA more receptive to a not to bad looking installation than you think? — Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My experience is in AZ. Almost all of the HOA’s here use the same verbiage. > No solar panels facing the street. Hell they even have regs to stop people > from flying the American Flag. > Since AZ as a bit of solar economy the state passed a law that prohibits HOA > or neighbors from interfering with your solar collection. The HOA’s which > are funded by unknowing folks. ( I sat on a HOA board for a year) Hired > attorneys and modified the verbiage to say basically "so you can not see if > from the street/front of the property" a kin to "unsightly" > The Arizona statute is:
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/33/00439.h… e=33&DocType=ARS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A. Any covenant, restriction or condition contained in any deed, > contract, security agreement or other instrument affecting the transfer > or sale of, or any interest in, real property which effectively > prohibits the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined > in section 44-1761 is void and unenforceable. > B. A deed, contract, security agreement or other instrument affecting > the transfer or sale of, or any interest in, real property entered into > before April 17, 1980 shall not be subject to the provisions of this > section. > Forcing you to put it in the shade probably would "effectively > prohibit" the installation. My HOA will require me to apply, but I > don’t see that they could say no to a reasonable installation. In my > case it will be in the back and that’s why I chose this lot. We’ll > see, once I get to afford the PV panels.
California has an almost identical provision : — quote — California Civil Code Section 714 – 714.5 714. (a) Any covenant, restriction, or condition contained in any deed, contract, security instrument, or other instrument affecting the transfer or sale of, or any interest in, real property that effectively prohibits or restricts the installation or use of a solar energy system is void and unenforceable. (A later amendment in 2004 prohibited any homeowner’s association or government body from similarly restricting solar installations. "Reasonable" restrictions are allowed — see the code for details — but these don’t appear to apply to our case.) —- end quote — There is a good chance that Texas law has something similar. I am not a laywer either, but it looks to me like all lights are green for installing solar energy systems around your house. There is nothing an HOA can do about it. Rob
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I wonder if any of these state laws defending solar energy devices could be used to protect clotheslines? Any experiences along these lines? -Jitney
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Just a thought but have you asked them yet? If it was me, I’d take a picture of the house and use PhotoShop to put some solar panels to show what it would look like (and hopefully it will look like a row of skylights) and then go visit a couple of the HOA board members. Not at the HOA meeting, go to their house and meet one to one so that they don’t feel any pressure to make a public decision. "No inoperable vehicles in the front yard" is a Yes or No issue, "Unsightly Additions" is one of those vague things that can go either way. Steve. By the way, my folks just sold their place in Steiner Ranch – nice community.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So far everyone on Google groups has given me fantastic advices > (well… mostly), so I decided to try my luck with this dilemma. > I have measured my house roof, and found a perfect spot to install 8 > solar panels to heat the pool. The bummer is that the south part of the > roof is facing the street, and will be quite visible to everyone. Now I > have to come up with a good argument for our HOA architecture comity to > approve my plan, as it directly conflicts with their "unsightly > articles" rule (hey, they look beautiful to me). > I’ve heard that some states have laws regarding renewable energy that > override any HOA’s, and there are some federal "Solar Access" > laws, but I don’t know if they apply in Texas. > I would hate to endup in a legal fight, and don’t want to spend $300 > per month operating heat pump. > If anyone has some experience with their pain-in-the-behind HOA members > and solar panels, please let me know! > Sincerely, > Denis
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Photoshop is a fine idea Steve! I will do that and have a small chat with them, to see in which way the wind is blowing… Steiner is awesome! It’s beautiful, and close to the lake and river.
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Well, here is where my problem lies (or is it lays?) I am not aware of any such federal/state/city regulation in Austin TX. I was hoping that someone can point me to a such law (outside of CA or AZ).
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> Well, here is where my problem lies (or is it lays?) I am not aware of > any such federal/state/city regulation in Austin TX. I was hoping that > someone can point me to a such law (outside of CA or AZ).
You can find all of Texas’ statutes online at http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html. A search on the word "solar" didn’t turn up anything relevant, but you might have better luck using alternative search terms. If aesthetics are going to be an issue, you might be able to please the HOA by doing a little research and finding panels that are aesthetically pleasing. Sunpower, for example, produces panels from solar cells that have no metal contacts on the front; as a result, the front surface of the panel is totally black and tends to look more like a skylight or other roof feature than a solar panel (though if you don’t have a dark roof it still looks pretty ugly, IMHO). There is also the option of using solar shingles, particularly if you’re willing or needing to replace part of your roof. Sharp also has some panels that are disguised as roofing elements, but they’re modeled after slate roofing tiles and might only be marketed in countries where that sort of roofing is common.
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FWIW – I copied this from your HOA manual, Page 47, Section 6.4 Roof mounted mechanical equipment should not extend beyond above the highest architectural element or be mounted on any elevation facing the street. Flat panel solar collectors and skylights are allowed, provided these items are "in scale" with the building and do not create a visual eyesore. Page 50, section 6.7 Rooftop solar collectors and rain collectors are encouraged when they are integrated into the roof system or hidden from primary views (such as street-facing roofs). My arguments would be (assuming you are dealing with rational people) 1. 6.4 conflicts 6.7 2. 6.4 clearly allows panels with the "eye sore exception" very subjective 3. In scale is subjective. 4. Visual eyesore would fall into the "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" 5. 6.7 states …integrated into the roof OR hidden……. OR is the keyword . It doesn’t say AND hidden. Therefore does not exclude street facing roofs. Black roof? and black panels may be argued are hidden and integrated. John John Umphress Joins the Green Building Staff http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/greenbuilder/nl_05sept_print.htm Austin Green Builder Program http://www.sustainable.doe.gov/codes/texgreen.shtml FWIW http://www.solaraustin.org/action.html
: Ok, more specifically, this is in Austin TX, and the community is : Steiner Ranch. :
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Thanks John. I guess the subjective part is what I’m worried about. Let’s hope they are in a good mood 
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I feel lucky when I read about these problems. Here in Germany this is no topic, unless you live in old, protected areas (protection of historic monuments etc). My collectors are faced to the street: http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/Kollektoren_an_Hausfront.jpg – beauty is a relative subject (I like it, as I’m very technically and ecologically oriented, but I know others don’t – well, I don’t care about them) Christian
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>I feel lucky when I read about these problems. Here in Germany this is no >topic, unless you live in old, protected areas (protection of historic >monuments etc). >My collectors are faced to the street: >http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/Kollektoren_an_Hausfront.jpg – beauty is a >relative subject (I like it, as I’m very technically and ecologically >oriented, but I know others don’t – well, I don’t care about them) >Christian
Very nice. It almost looks like the vines are attracted to the modules. You should feel lucky about your country not being afflicted with HOAs. They do have a valid purpose in assigning quasi-governmental control over neighborhood issues to those who live in the neighborhood. But even the smallest amounts of "power" can corrupt, and the volunteers who run HOA’s are often far less qualified to serve than even FEMA’s "Brownie". In an effort to limit the number of arguments that stem from our tendency to sign up to commitments we can’t be bothered to keep (or even read sometimes), the organizations resort to codifying the most ridiculous details. For example – because in the past someone violated a vague rule that put a limit on perhaps "excessive" vehicle parking, the new rule will dictate not only exactly how many vehicles may be parked where and when, but which way they face as well. It’s definitely out of control in some places, and that’s just one more good reason to live off-grid IMO. Wayne
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It’s not vine – it’s a glyzinie (I hope babelfish is right here…). Actually it already went that way on a wire, which I had to remove for the collectors. But the birds immediately had a nest behind the collectors in that plant… 
I know something like the HUA too, but they are neither volunteers (but authorities – I don’t know whether it’s better though), but there are local laws more or less detailed about the things I can do with the house, it varies locally. The less the better. In my place they regulate the house height, roof type, -inclination and -color, and that I may not have ‘dormer-ventilator’ (oops, babelfish, sounds not correct…), but that’s more or less it. Nothing really restricting. Usually, in older areas, there’s nothing special, which means basic building laws apply (in regards to distance to the neighbor, …). Newer ones tend to become unified. The more laws, the more boring an environment is. Why the same roof color? I don’t know, but I can accept. Now even someone cheated here (shining red instead of the usual matt roofing tiles, and a different red… ), but as long as no-one complains, that’s OK. And as for other details, it’s often better to just do it and pay the fee (if there ever is one) than to apply… Christian PS: Such a newsgroup is really interesting, I would never know such details about the US if I never lived there…
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<snip> > PS: Such a newsgroup is really interesting, I would never know such > details about the US if I never lived there…
And we too learn some things about others such as yourself. And that’s a good thing. daestrom
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Hi – a question for Christian. I am a novice at solar heating. May I ask, what do you power with the panels you show in your picture, and how does your latitude compare with that of Chicago or Milwaukee in the US? Thanks Bob
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s not vine – it’s a glyzinie (I hope babelfish is right here…). > Actually it already went that way on a wire, which I had to remove for the > collectors. But the birds immediately had a nest behind the collectors in > that plant… > I know something like the HUA too, but they are neither volunteers (but > authorities – I don’t know whether it’s better though), but there are > local laws more or less detailed about the things I can do with the house, > it varies locally. The less the better. In my place they regulate the > house height, roof type, -inclination and -color, and that I may not have > ‘dormer-ventilator’ (oops, babelfish, sounds not correct…), but that’s > more or less it. Nothing really restricting. > Usually, in older areas, there’s nothing special, which means basic > building laws apply (in regards to distance to the neighbor, …). Newer > ones tend to become unified. The more laws, the more boring an environment > is. Why the same roof color? I don’t know, but I can accept. Now even > someone cheated here (shining red instead of the usual matt roofing tiles, > and a different red… ), but as long as no-one complains, that’s OK. > And as for other details, it’s often better to just do it and pay the fee > (if there ever is one) than to apply… > Christian > PS: Such a newsgroup is really interesting, I would never know such > details about the US if I never lived there…
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Hi Bob, My panels heat up a water reservoir of 500 liters, which in turn can heat up my warm water that I use using a pipe heat exchanger in the tank. No support for house heating (old standard radiators). My latitude is about 47.7 deg, which means southern Lake Superior, far north of Chicago (41.4 deg). Nearly canada. I recently added another 16 cm of insulation (26 cm total now) to the tank, which now allows me to stay off-sun for more than 5 days (30 sep the water was heated up to about 84 degrees Celsius (http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solar/20050930.png), and now I still have about 48 (http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solar/20051005.png). The water can heat up to a maximum temperature of about 95 deg Celsius, which would mean at least one day more if the reservoir is fully heated up, which requires two days of sunshine. And I hope I still don’t need the back-up heating tomorrow – possibly some sun might get through the mist if I’m lucky. Otherwise maybe the third time since march that I need a liter of oil – or I test whether 43 degrees still allow a normal shower . They should, if the sensors return the correct temperature. In periods that I know to be bad weather periods, bathing is frowned upon, because it reduced the reservoir’s temperature about 7 degrees (see http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solar/20050927.png – ignore the peak at 18:30, which was a manual test of the pump, but at 20:30 my wife made herself a bathtub). Showering is no problem if not done excessively. We’re five people here, two adults and three kids. Hope that helps. Christian
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi – a question for Christian. > I am a novice at solar heating. May I ask, what do you power with the > panels you show in your picture, and how does your latitude compare with > that of Chicago or Milwaukee in the US? > Thanks > Bob
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